a question of differentials

[jimmy_stikx]

Has anyone used the Lockright lockers that VPW is selling?

[MSeriesRebuild]

RUN man RUN!!

You will need to own an axle shaft factory, lock-rites will pop them frequently if you run any on pavement or hard ground. The real problem with lock-rites is they can't be disengaged when not needed; this adds tremendous stress to other components. The only situations where lock-rites perform well without issue is in off road conditions where little or no solid ground is encountered. In these situations, the wheels can slip relieving the stress so things don't break.

[jimmy_stikx]

Thanks for the info! I'll look into other options then.

[MSeriesRebuild]

Thanks for the info! I'll look into other options then.

The ARB air locker is the only other option that will work without other issues.

[jimmy_stikx]

Do you know the model number I need to look for, for ones that work with these now oddball axles?

[MSeriesRebuild]

Do you know the model number I need to look for, for ones that work with these now oddball axles?

Available from a single source;

www.powerwagonlocker.com

[jimmy_stikx]

Thank you

[JimC]

Does anyone still make the KS-22 No-Spins that Detroit Automotive Products Corporation was making during WWII ? You could still get them in the mid-60's. They will fit the M37 5.83 ring gear if you plug the one mounting hole that doesn't match (it missed by half the hole diameter) and then redrill it to match the ring gear.

[MSeriesRebuild]

Does anyone still make the KS-22 No-Spins that Detroit Automotive Products Corporation was making during WWII ? You could still get them in the mid-60's. They will fit the M37 5.73 ring gear if you plug the one mounting hole that doesn't match (it missed by half the hole diameter) and then redrill it to match the ring gear.

The standard ring and pinion ratio used in M37 is 5.83 to 1, not 5.73. At any rate, Detroit Lockers present the same problem as the Lock-Rite, they can't be disengaged when not needed. Axle shaft breakage and other component stressed failures will result. Any fully automatic locker will cause problems unless the vehicle is used off road 100% of the time. If a locker can't be disengaged when operation is on pavement or hard ground, make no mistake, problems are headed your way if you install these products.

[m37mark]

I have a lock-rite in the rear & had one in the front. I broke a rear axle soon after installing the locker. When the shaft broke I was on hard ground with a 2 inches of very slick mud on top, this offered little traction & I was at about 1200rpm. This was a stock axle & I think its service life was over, locker or not. I purchased rear axles from vetran vehicles & have had good luck so far. I think other venders have these axles. Venders other than VPW also have lock-rites. These axles were installed in 05 & I put 3000 miles on them with a 6cyl, then installed a 360 with factory fuel injection & put another 3000 miles on them. My truck is not a work truck, all it haules is me & what ever is needed for a day of trail riding. Some do other things with their truck & may have a different story than me. However, this truck trail rides mainly on rocks or hard packed dirt. It also goes on the road for joy rides, car shows, the store, etc. Once the v8 was installed I now drive like I'm a kid again, when I take off from a stop (turns only, never straight) on the street, I can not resist flooring it, letting the locker lock, & the rear end slide with the tires squealing. The tires on this truck are 39.5x15 super swampers with recentered h1 wheels with inserts & weigh a lot. Come see me at Don Scotts old truck trail ride or at the VPW Rally & we can go for a ride. (or sneek on the circle track for some hot laps)

[JimC]

Charles, I know they are 5.83
But try convincing the aggressive spell checker on my phone of that
It took me 3 attempts to get it right in this post. -- phone kept insisting it was 5.8B


I've been running the KS-22 No-Spins in my M37 and Power Wagon for 46 years now without undue problems, so am not too concerned about their shortcomings. They are no harder on the axles than the big block Chevy is, though they do exhibit the typical No-Spin turning characteristics and clattering when the outboard axle is overrunning. You soon get used to that.

I myself, have never had too much trouble with axle breakage, but every time I loan them out, they do come back with a broken axle. Simple solution to that -- I quit loaning them out unless I'm the one driving. I think the loaner axle breakage is due more to misuse of the BB Chevy than to the No-Spins.

I like the BB enough that I'm planning to install a 502 crate engine in the 37 this go around.

[JimC]

Mark, how fast is your truck with those big tires and the 360?
In the 37, we chickened out at 111 mph with the BB and Firestone 9.00x16 Super All-Tractions (I ain't ever gonna try that again,).

[MSeriesRebuild]

Let me offer a little background info on my feelings about automatic lockers. We started installing these back in the early 90's, they were new to our area. They were highly recommended by the folks at Hercules for whom we were installing diesels in M37's at that time. Wasn't long until complaints started to come back to us; some folks had so many issues that they came back wanting to pay us to remove lockers and put differentials back to the standard configuration. Guess what, no more problems. Now I can't say how much impact drivers habits had on the problems, likely to have been some I'm sure. We got away from installing lock-rites except in specific applications, issues dropped to near 0. I stayed away from them until the ARB's came along years later. I was asked to install one of the first ones, there was an article covering our installation in Military Vehicles Magazine a few years back. These have been super up to this point. I wish they were more readily available instead of on and off as has been the case.

Bottom line; saw too many unhappy lock-rite customers. With such a drastic turn around when we stopped using them except upon request; it was blatantly obvious where the problems were coming from. If you as an individual want to try your luck with them, feel free. If you are unhappy, then you made the choice. On the other hand, if you are like us installing for others and having to stand behind your work, that is a totally different story. Taking care of all the issues as an out of pocket expense starts to become noticeable rather quickly.

[JimC]

Charles what lockers were you using in the 37's back in the 60's?
That's when we tried our luck with them after hearing about their use in Africa during WWII.
They were a big help during our search and rescue operations, particularly when we were dealing with the soft sand and mud along the Mississippi and White Rivers.

Liked them then and still do.

I can certainly see why you would be leery of installing them for multiple customers as part of your business, but I'm not just now thinking about trying them -- I started using them in V8 powered 37's almost half a century ago with exactly the results I desired. They contain no surprises. (I'm referring specifically to the KS-22's)

For historical reasons, I am curious about when and why Detroit Automotive Products Corporation merged into the current company.

[MSeriesRebuild]

Charles what lockers were you using in the 37's back in the 60's?
That's when we tried our luck with them after hearing about their use in Africa during WWII.
They were a big help during our search and rescue operations, particularly when we were dealing with the soft sand and mud along the Mississippi and White Rivers.

Liked them then and still do.

I can certainly see why you would be leery of installing them for multiple customers as part of your business, but I'm not just now thinking about trying them -- I started using them in V8 powered 37's almost half a century ago with exactly the results I desired. They contain no surprises. (I'm referring specifically to the KS-22's)

For historical reasons, I am curious about when and why Detroit Automotive Products Corporation merged into the current company.

We were not doing them in the 60's.

Soft sand and mud terrain is where lockers work best, and are intended to be used. These are the situations where wheels can easily slip in poor traction conditions enough to keep driveline stress to a minimum. It is on pavement and hard ground where little to no wheel slippage is possible; it is the non-slip scenario of all wheels being locked into a positive traction mode that presses driveline stress levels to the point of component failures. Lockers such as the ARB air locker work great as they can be disengaged to run as an open differential when not needed in the soft sand and muddy conditions. As need arises, the flip of a switch locks them in to offer positive traction on demand.

Common sense must kick in, at least it does for me. Now at the age of 61, I've been through many an M37 and Power Wagon differential. The Detroit no-spin is a self contained unit that does not utilize the original differential works or the case. That makes it at least a longer lasting unit, although the production of high stress levels are still present to cause axle shaft failures among other components in the unit. Lock-Rites do utilize the original differential core housing. It in itself is not designed or built to withstand the added stresses that are applied for 1 thing. All this is accomplished by removing the spider gears and installing spring loaded drivers that engage the teeth of the side gears. This set up wears very quickly on the sharp defined edges of the teeth on a new side gear because of the ratcheting action during turns, etc . Once very slight wear on the edges of teeth become prevalent; (tooth edges become rounded) tooth slippage starts happening between the drivers and side gears. Once this is underway, (and it will get underway rather quickly if operating under extreme stress conditions like on pavement), handling characteristics of your truck will be realized right away. The first sign is usually driving in perfectly normal conditions on a straight paved road, all of a sudden you will feel the locker disengage momentarily on 1 rear wheel. This makes the rear of your truck fish tail slightly, until it grabs back into engagement. This may happen every 500' or so as you drive along. Obviously the wear gets worse at an accelerated pace once this starts up. It may chip away at the teeth on the driver and side gear until there is nothing left to hold on a given side. One might think that when that happens, the vehicle will be sitting on the side of the road disabled to the point it would need a toe or you engage the front axle drive and limp home. Actually you would be better off if that were the case, but it isn't. The design of a lock-rite is to transfer all pulling effort to the wheel that has traction, so when mechanical failure such as a broken shaft or stripped gearing stops the tractive effort on a given wheel, the other side keeps right on going. Now the metal chards and chips from the broken axle shaft or broken side gear teeth are circulated through and through the whole diff unit mixed with the oil until the whole unit is destroyed as a result, and that won't take long. Most people never realize they have a problem going on until that point. The end usually comes when the remaining shaft gives up the ghost. All who are tempted to use a Lock-Rite or similarly operating automatic locker in an on highway application should see a unit torn down that has failed in this manner. At this point; it will cost several thousands of $$$ to repair if it gets done right. If common sense does not kick in at that point, for lack of better terms, I guess common sense does not exist within that individual.

I've heard it said as long as I can remember, "seeing is believing." Seeing a number of these failures has made a believer out of me. We install a lock-rite for a client only after a thorough explanation of the possible down side effects they can cause. Yes, we have had a few to come back saying, "I see now what you meant."

Understand I'm not telling you what to install or not in your truck. The question was asked, I offered an educated, (have a diploma from the school of hard knocks) absolutely factual reply. What you do is your decision completely. Who knows, you too may get your diploma like I did.

A side note; the Foote axle shafts that Bob at Veteran Vehicles and us used to sell were offered wholesale from S&S Truck parts back in the day. They have been gone for several years now because Foote didn't have a large enough market for them to be profitable to build them any longer according to Scott at S&S. I know of no more that are available today, actually a take-out original is about the best hope going right now unless you do custom shafts built from 4140 or similar heat treatable alloy stock. That is a costly affair.