Off Topic: WWI German Helmet Question

[Carter]

Anybody know anything about this? I got it and a lot of other First and Second World War stuff (packs, first aid kits, tents, mess kits, clothing and a S&W 1917 .45 cal revolver) from a lady my wife and I have known for over 40 yrs. She is intrested in selling the lot and wanted to know about value. Everything was her Gfathers and Fathers in 3 white sea bags and she want's it all sold. Help appreciated, Thanks

[MikeOneSix]

Carter

That looks like an M1917 sthalhelm (steel helmet) I'm saying that it is an M1917 because of the small rivet below and to the right of the side lug. This was a wire bale on a small folded over piece of metal for the later style of chin strap.Your helmet appears to have an original camo paint job applied to it. If I'm not mistaken, I think that was a "late war" practice. I noticed that the rivet that holds the liner in place is still present ( below and to the left of side lug) Does it still have a liner?

In case you were wondering.....

The "lugs" on those helmets were attaching points for an up armored "shield". It was designed to be worn in conjunction with an armored breast plate. They were issued to snipers and machine gunners (guys who's heads & upper torsoes would be exposed to enemy return fire) as well as Storm troopers (not the white plastic guys from star wars, but special assault infantry) .

I'm affraid I can't give you much help in determaning the value as I've been out of the game for a long time but you may post your inquiry over in the reenactor forum on www.g503.com Good luck with it, (I'm jealous).

Matt

[Carter]

Thanks for your reply and info, I have a bunch more stuff to photo, but the stuff isnt mine anyway. I'm the one who is jealous of the owner and not happy she wants to sell it all.
I posted the question on g503 and have several PMs to ck. out next.

Liner and signature pix:





US helmet pix from the same collection:

[MikeOneSix]

Carter

Now that I can see the interior I believe that is actually an M1916 Sthalhelm as those "studs" on either side of the interior were for the older style chin strap. The leather pads look a litte "new" to me to be original (but what do I know?) so maybe they were replacements from a later date? The (original?) owner's signature is pretty cool it, and the camo paint job really make that helmet something special.

The US M1917 "Soup dish" helmet has the correct liner and chinstrap for the period (W.W.I) as well as the original tag so it was most likey unissued. I had one just like it years ago(used to have a very impressive W.W.I collection). The one thing I don't remember as of this posting is one of those soup dish helmets (ours, or British commonwealth) had a "raw" edge on it. That is to say, there was no "lip" around the edge of the brim.

Sorry to hear that she wants to dump everything. It's times like this that I wish I was independantly wealthy. The local fab shop has a Maxim 08/15 & Vicker's (both water cooled MGs) that they have to deactivate for a local PD sitting in their shop.
Matt

[Lifer]

So, she asked what it was worth, huh? You coulda said "I dunno, but I'll give ya a hunnert bucks for the works." Who knows? She might have said "okay!"

Of course, that could be construed as taking advantage of a sweet little old lady or even a bit crass of you if you had.

[Carter]

Thanks guys, I posted the pic in another forum and they deleated it fast then a mod PMd me and offered $325 dont have to think real hard about what's going on. Another PM sender thought $600-1000 at auction.....maybe he added.

I have 35 pix for an album on webshots. I'll put up a couple of my group field gear shots later, but for now how about a S&W 1917 .45acp revolver that was with the rest of this stuff.

[MikeOneSix]

Carter
That thing looks practically unissued ! In keeping with the spirit of that moderator I'd like to offer you $50.00 for it Carter I'm only down in Va, it would be worth it to drive up there to where you are just to see this stuff. Like I posted earlier, I'm jealous.... BTW, in case you weren't aware of it, you'll need either "half moon" or "full moon" clips to use .45ACP ammo in that revolver.
Thanks, for posting.
Matt

[Lifer]

I had half a coffee can full of those half-moon clips 40 years ago. I went to one last gun show when my ANG unit got activated in the waning days of our little sojourn in SEA and sold them for 5¢ apiece! So much for my foresight, huh?

[Carter]

OK Matt, drive up and we will have a great time talking M37s and US gear, I have a lot of this lady's stuff to go thru and lockers full of my own gear, maybe you can help w/info and ID, PM me if you are serious about a trip. The S&W is almost unused and came W/clips and ammo

Charlie, those 1/2 moon clips would have been perfect accessories for this, Oh Well.

More pix:

[hbb]

The Model 1917 Smith & Wesson is in unissued condition and is a very collectable weapon that should be appraised by reputable appraisers. It is extremely desirable and sought after, what a find! I am guessing myself around $2000.00 they are just not found often in that condition. As far as the rest of the collection you are dealing with items that folks will tell you that they are not worth much to steal them, but you might do some home work on those also. The German helmet is worth around $450.00-$500.00 or more with the painted camouflage of the first war.
hb

[Carter]

Thanks to everyone who has helped with ID'ing and placing a value this stuff. Posting on this and other forums has produced a lot of PMs, posts and emails with offers to buy part or all, price info and general offers of help.

I received one offer from a very generous fellow who offered to buy the entire lot and place it all in the Museum of the American GI which the owner has accepted. Now the Zeller family collection will be preserved and displayed in a way that pleases the owner, the museum and me.

This stuff seemed to valueable as a collection of GI gear and family history to sell off individually and have all of it's history lost. This is the very best outcome I could have thought of.

I don't want to reveal the buyers name but for some of you who have been in the MV hobby for some time you might recognise the name of the town where the museum is located, College Station, Texas.

Thanks all from the owner and from me.
Carter

[Lifer]

I've looked at (and drooled over) those pictures several times. I finally noticed that the pouch containing the first aid kit is marked "RIA 1916." I grew up less than 50 miles from Rock Island Arsenal and never knew they made any of the web gear there. They've built lots of tanks and artillery pieces, though. Some of the older pieces seem to be sprouting right out of the lawns, as you can see simply by driving the main drag from one gate to the other. If you ever get a chance to go there, the Browning Museum is a treat...especially for weapons collectors. There's plenty of stuff to drool over, but none of it is for sale.

[MikeOneSix]

I didn't notice it with any of the gear on display in this thread, but something that was particular to a lot of the gear used during WW I and resurfaced just prior to the 1st Gulf war was the marking of not only the year of manufacture, but also the month. For example, I've had M1910 haversacks that were dated "June 1918" or grenade vests dated October 1918.

Matt

[Joe]

The US was very isolationist prior to it's entry into WW I and was very unprepared. We had very small military and FEW military supplies. Consequently when we did enter the war we made a MAJOR effort to produce the enormous amounts of supplies for the massive army needed to fight a WORLD WAR. Then shortly after we entered the war it ended abruptly and we were left with massive amounts of supplies that had never been issued and in many cases were still being produced well after the war ended. Most of those supplies went into storage, never to be issued and then disposed of in brand new, un-issued condition MANY years later. That explains the large amounts of new condition items that showed up periodically for decades after WW I. Just as a side note, we (the US) learned our lesson about unpreparedness and well before WW II started we has already simplified many designs for mass production (1903 to 1903A3 rifle, for example), we started drafting and training troops in 1939, designed new weapons and equipment (Garand 1936, M1 carbine 1940), issued "educational contracts" for manufacturers to setup production lines, etc, etc.

[Carter]

I've looked at (and drooled over) those pictures several times. I finally noticed that the pouch containing the first aid kit is marked "RIA 1916." I grew up less than 50 miles from Rock Island Arsenal and never knew they made any of the web gear there. They've built lots of tanks and artillery pieces, though. Some of the older pieces seem to be sprouting right out of the lawns, as you can see simply by driving the main drag from one gate to the other. If you ever get a chance to go there, the Browning Museum is a treat...especially for weapons collectors. There's plenty of stuff to drool over, but none of it is for sale.

They have a long history of making gear there Charlie. I have heard that some WWI GIs complained when they were issued RIA made 1903s that they were made from left over mess kit metal and were not up to the quality of Springfield made rifles. GIs bitch about anything, real or imagined.
I would like one of those artillery pieces would sprout in my front yard.


http://riamwr.com/museum.htm
" Rock Island Arsenal was established by Act of Congress in 1862. The arsenal has been an active manufacturer of military equipment and ordnance since the 1880s. Our diverse products have included leather horse equipment, meat cans and canteens, paper targets, artillery recoil mechanisms and carriages, and the Model 1903 rifle."