Update on Wisconsin Military Vehicle Ban

[creinemann]

Hello everyone, it's been a while since I posted, hate it when work gets in the way of more important things. I thought I'd share a letter from Jeff Rowsam who has been heading up a grassroots efforts to get the State of Wisconsin to overturn their policy (randomly enforced) of not titling former MV's

Wisconsin Historic Military Vehicle Title and Registration Issue


Summary of legislative meeting Feb 8, 2008

A small group meeting was held at the WI State Capital in Madison to better understand the MV title issue and discuss possible solutions thru the legislative process.

Meeting was held in Rep Karl Van Roy’s offices. Rep Van Roy from Green Bay, serves on the transportation committee and has expressed interest in supporting legislation to allow use of Historic Military Vehicles in WI.

Attending the meeting:
Tanya Hein – Legislative Aide, Representing Rep. Karl Van Roy
Paul Nilsen – Assistant General Counsel, Wis DOT
Jeff Rowsam – representing the interest of Wis HMV collectors
Robt Anderson - representing the interest of Wis HMV collectors
A representative from the legislative drafting office
A representative aid from Senator Erpinbach’s office (Interested constituents)

The meeting lasted from 1:30 PM thru 4:00 PM

Rowsam and Anderson explained the collector hobby and addressed the concerns of HMV collectors. An inquiry was made about the DOT position on titling and registration of former military vehicles by private individuals in WI.

Paul Nilsen provided information that provides a better understanding of the situation from the DOT view.

We learned the following:

The WI DOT position is a concern about public highway safety. The DOT intends to insure that ALL vehicles operated on WI roadways and were built after Jan 1, 1968, meet the federal safety law requirements mandated by the National Highway Transportation Safety Act of 1966. (Details are in Title 49 US Code Chapter 301).

The act established a national law that incorporates specific safety features in on-highway vehicles. The safety features are updated as new technology is developed. Previously we understood that the DOT was sighting WI Statute 341.10(6) because the vehicle was “designed for off road”. This is not correct. The second line of the WI statute is the issue. “unless the vehicle meets the provisions of s114 of the national traffic and motor vehicle safety act of 1966”

After passage, the effective date for the 1966 act began with 1968 mfg.
Meeting Notes Page 2

Military tactical vehicles manufactured from Jan 1, 1968 and after, have a federal waiver or exemption of the safety requirement and do not have to comply with NHTSA standard. Newer Mil vehicles meet some but not all the requirements.

The WI DOT has not targeting military vehicles as a specific group. They are targeting any vehicle that does not meet the federal safety standard.

The DOT was surprised to learn that surplus US military vehicles are regularly sold to the public. The DOT has the impression from other government sources that the US government does not sell surplus vehicles and only exports them to friendly foreign allies. The DOT believed that the only source for US HMV’s was thru re-importing them back to the US from a foreign source.

We explained that their information was not correct. Provided examples.

We discussed the automotive collector concerns for vehicles built prior to 1968, including HMV’s. While the DOT is not happy about having the earlier vehicles on the road, they acknowledge that there is no national standard that can be applied. Collector cars built prior to Jan 1, 1968 are not affected and can operate under WI Regular or Collector plate as they are now.

DOT is concerned about owners of mid 1980’s vintage auto’s that have a longer life span are again being incorrectly operating as “daily drivers” with collector plates. Since there is no mileage restriction on vehicles with collector plates, they raise concern about owners of former military vehicles wanting to operate “unrestricted” using a collector plate.

The DOT indicated that they had “not rejected titles or registrations for military vehicles built prior the 1968”. We corrected him on this issue. The dept has in fact taken that action. He acknowledged that their offices should not be rejecting applications simply because it is a “Military Vehicle”.

He explained that the daily high volume of applications for WI titles and registrations for vehicles (cars and light trucks) assembled from mixed components by hobby builders, off road builders and others, causes them to often question the safety aspect of a vehicle application since they can’t identify what year it is and so what standard is to be applied. The key here is the 1968 date.

DOT clerks can spend only minutes, not hours evaluating your application. HMV applications would do better, not to detail that your WWII Jeep is a Ford GPW frame with Willys engine or body. Too much detail will likely cause rejection. Keep it simple.

Meeting Notes Page 3

DOT application of current regulation is far from uniform. The DOT needs to work on better education of the DMV offices to provide uniform coverage. We agree.

The root issue for the DOT is weather a 1968 or later vehicle conforms to the NHTSA laws. The 1968 or later date is the “trip wire” for rejection of registration.

This is where the issue of foreign imported vehicles enters the issue. The DOT has become concerned with a rising number of imported vehicles arriving in WI that do not meet US NHTSA safety standards. Post 1968 foreign cars and trucks including former military vehicles such as Pinzgauers, Unimogs and Land Rovers among others are all considered non conforming.

The DOT incorrectly granted title and registration to 30 Pinsguars in WI. When the DOT realized the Pinzgauer's do not meet the 1966 NHTSA standards, the DOT canceled the titles and registrations. Not because they were military but because they do not meet the requirements of NHTSA. This caused wide spread calls that the WI DOT was “banning” military vehicles. It could have been a fleet of non conforming Japanese civilian mini cargo trucks and would have resulted in the same cancellation of registration.

Since US Military vehicles built after 1968 are not built to conform to the 1966 NHTSA act, they are viewed by the WI DOT is the same light as Non-Conforming foreign vehicles.

It was explained that there are FOUR (4) ways to allow foreign imported vehicles to qualify to operate on WI roads.

(and also post 1968 US Military Vehicles)

1) Confirm it is a conforming Vehicle – has a certification tag on the vehicle that it meets US NHTSA requirements
2) Have an importer who is qualified by NHTSA inspect the US or Foreign vehicle and certify that a vehicle meets NHTSA
3) The foreign vehicle is listed by NHTSA as “substantially similar” with another similar conforming US model
a. Foreign cars sold in US and of the same design sold with different model name overseas are an example.
4) The non conforming vehicle has equipment added or upgraded to comply with NHTSA





Meeting Notes Page 4

What followed was a discussion of possible statute changes that would allow HMV’s to be operated in a historic vehicle role with limitation.

The DOT is concerned with non conforming post 1968 vehicles
(Including Military) being operated outside the limits of a collector license by operators unfamiliar or untrained with foreign or military vehicle features. That this will pose a safety risk to the public and will result in injury or fatality. The DOT is firm on their stand for uniform public safety measures. It is US FEDERAL LAW.

We discussed with the legislative aids, legal drafter/writer and DOT counsel several possible solutions.

We introduced copies of HMV specific legislation from TEXAS, KANSAS, MISSISSIPPI and OHIO that addresses HMV use for parades, displays, education and veteran’s events.

Three options resulted from the discussion. These will be considered for Wisconsin HMV’s.

1) If the HMV was built before 1968 it is outside the NHTSA of 1966 and can be operated under the current collector license. The DOT would like to see a change from unlimited use to some limit of on-road use. They do not want to add administrative burden (NO mandatory owners odometer reports or other added paper -Too much burden on owners and DOT)

Currently titled and collector licensed post 1968 HMV’s were discussed as to weather they could remain “as is” under some type of “grandfather” conditions? Research required. May or may not be allowed.

2) If an HMV owner with a vehicle built after Jan 1 1968 wants to operate it unrestricted in WI they would have to prove it is a conforming vehicle. To verify safety conformity, the vehicle could be inspected by an authorized importer who has the documentation to determine conformity just as they would for an imported foreign vehicle. Would likely require upgrades to a US Military Vehicle.

3) Create a statute change that would provide a new definition of a Historic Military Vehicle in WI that would allow former Military Vehicle (US or Foreign) to be titled and licensed under the current WI Antique Vehicle license. This limits the vehicle use to operation for historic events and is limited to no more than 1500 road miles per year. Currently the WI Antique License is only for vehicles 1945 and older. Registration of any age HMV would require a change to add a sub group under Antique Vehicle.
Meeting Notes Page 5

The third option would be much easier than creating a new classification and category for “Historic Vehicles” .

The HMV legislation passed by other states is similar. The DOT would likely agree to Non Conforming HMV use under these limitations.

What constitutes travel to an “event” will be an issue. How to enforce? Operation for short trip pleasure rides was not discussed.

Again the DOT issue is for on highway safety. They understand the HMV issue and are sympathetic to historic preservation. Their concern is more about people operating non conforming vehicles without restriction for commercial, farm, or hobby use including hauling cargo on the roads. Even under current Collector Plate use, that limits trucks to not carry more than 500 Lbs.

What happens next?

Rep Van Roy’s office will work with the draft writers to develop a proposal to amend the antique category. With the current work load, this will likely not be completed before the end of the current legislative session. The draft would likely be completed around June 2008.

We will have an opportunity to review the proposal and suggest changes.

The proposal will then be sponsored by Rep Van Roy and introduced for consideration in the transportation committee. There will be a public hearing for comment probably early in 2009.

It would then likely be brought to the floor in the 2009 legislative session for action by the legislature. Hopefully with passage and would move to the governor for signature in 2009.

End Meeting Notes

[Lifer]

It sounds like whomever drafted the current Wisconsin statute did not have a firm grasp of the English language. Either that or a committee of semi-literate professional politicians got together for an axe-grinding party. I'm glad to see that you were able to meet with them and begin working on a solution to the problem. If it will help, maybe I'll drive my M37 across the border after I get it up and running and ask for a tour of the Governor's Mansion. It would be much more effective, though, if a large group of us were to make an "event" of it.

[Josh]

Makes me glad mine is a 1954 and carries a michigan title currently.

I don't get why they are concerned with OUR safety in these vehicles... they should be concerned with the safety of those in the Toyota prius that run the red light and pull out in front of 6000 lbs of 60 year old heat treated steel!!

Doesnt suprise me that lawmakes that have no idea about what they are voting on, have banned together under the banner of stupidity to pass yet more legislation regulating the public's rights.

The purpose of government is to protect the public, not harm it. Please explain to me how a 60 year old military truck capable of 40 MPH is more of a threat to society then the 16 year old girl in her mom's sububrban talking on her cell phone and doing her makeup while driving.

[DJ]

As usual there is a underlying factor here. As a Wis HMV collector I am watching this closely. The problem was originally with the Swiss made Pinzagaur(sp). The big issue that started the DOT wheels turning was ,so called,vehicle collectors themselves. Any 20 year old or older vehicle can be licensed as a collector in Wi. So you have people driving a POS 20 year old car as his daily driver,with no intention of fixing any part of it unless absolutely neccesary.As a collecter plate is much cheaper than a regular plate he is saving money and screwing the honest collector.As usual a few ruin it for all !!

[KenInGA]

I can see the problems with the Pinzgauers (that's the correct spelling, FYI), as they are imported. However, this makes no sense otherwise. Except for Jeeps, most MVs are much sturdier than modern passenger cars. Maybe they should sample the matter they are legislating over first, to get some experience with it, then make decisions.

I hope everything works out with this. These simple yet crazy mishaps with the law get annoying...

[CREEPING DEATH]

Please explain to me how a 60 year old military truck capable of 40 MPH is more of a threat to society then the 16 year old girl in her mom's sububrban talking on her cell phone and doing her makeup while driving.

My father was rear-ended by one of those, 16 year old freshly licensed driving a Suburban full of her friends while on the cell phone.
That was only the first of the bad, his lawyer was so bad that the settlement didn't cover the legal fees and expenses!

CD

[ChrisG]

Hello,
This situation sounds familiar. Here in Australia I have just gone through some extraordinary issues to have our M37 fully road registered.

Oh yes Australia MUST be the most over legislated country in the world. I think it is a hangover from being a British colony that required a permit even to fart.

To cut a long story short I have now registered our '53 M37 to comply with Australian traffic legistlation.....after 12 months work ... and what happened on our first outing.

You guessed it, some 18 year old 'P' plate driver was overtaking us towing a trailer and cut back in too soon and clipped into us. We were doing 45MPH and it was only the good driving of my partner that had her hold our truck onto the road.

I just shake my head when I hear of these stories of people making rules for MV owners when it is idiots like the %^@^ who ran into us that should be taken off the road!

Cheers!

[creinemann]

Here is the latest on this issue:

From: jerowsam@************
To: Subject: Wis DOT and Historic Military Vehicle Registration updates



But things have been grinding along (slowly). There is some good news.



Earlier this spring, several of us HMV types met with the board of the Wisconsin Car Clubs Alliance. This organization represents over 100 old car clubs around the state and has both the experience and membership numbers to effect legislation that has impact on the collector car hobby. The WCCA was founded some 20 years ago over similar issues when the WI DOT proposed additional restrictions on Wisconsin car collectors. They remain a watchdog group and are ready to join our fight to use or Historic Military Collector Vehicles. If your MV club is not a member of the WCCA, you should be contact me for more information about the organization.



Tim Scobie, Bob Anderson and Jeff Rowsam met a second time with Rep Karl Van Roy’s staff at the state Capitol two weeks ago. This meeting included two people from the DOT, additional legal staff from the legislature and two lawyers representing the specific concerns of the Pinzgauer military truck owners.



Clearly, we have touched a nerve and there are more and more people becoming aware of our issue.



Since our capitol meeting in Feb 2008, the WI DOT has gone back to their offices to re-evaluate their policy of refusing WI titles for any former Military vehicle sighting that MV’s are “Off Road” vehicles and so can not be operated on the roadway. The “off road” interpretation is the summary in WI 340.10(6) for refusal to grant title. In the recent May meeting, council for the DOT indicated that the department has re-evaluated the interpretation and realized that the WI DOT policy is in conflict with the “On Road” vehicle definition used by the Federal Government. This is specifically in conflict with the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. The WI DOT is re writing the current administrative code to change the HMV definition from Off Road to an “On- Highway vehicle with off road capability”.



Victory Number 1)

That means that in the future, WI DOT – DMV will not refuse to grant title for a former military vehicle based on the vehicle being designed as an “Off Highway” vehicle. We will have the opportunity to review the change before it goes the legislature in the 2009 session.



Victory Number 2)

We have successfully lobbied the WI DOT about the difference between HMV’s built prior to NTHSA act of 1966 that went into effect with model year 1968 vehicles. While the WI DOT is not happy about it, they acknowledged that former military vehicles, built prior to model year 1968 can not be prohibited from license and operation in WI as long as they are compliant with the requirements of WI Transportation Rules section 305. These are the same requirements as any other pre 1968 civilian car, truck or motorcycle.



Previously, the DOT had tried to make the case that ALL military vehicles regardless of vintage are not made to NHTSA federal standard and are therefore “Non Compliant” and unsafe for use on WI highways. Now, pre 1968 vehicles can stay on the road with any plate the owner chooses. The blue collector plate being the most popular.



Remaining issue)

The outstanding issue now turns to former military vehicles built post 1968. The WI DOT sights these post 1968 vehicles as NOT produced to meet the requirements of the 1966 NHTSA Act and considers then to be “Non Conforming” and therefore cannot issue a license to operate these former military vehicles. This would include CUCV’s, HMMWVs, Late Model M35’s and Late 5 Ton series trucks.



The resolution to this issue would be a legislative rule change that would create a special use category for HMV’s to be used for public display, education, parades, etc. This would be similar to HMV legislation that is law in OHIO and Kansas among others. While this would be more restrictive, it looks like the only option for post 1968 HMV’s.



We discussed and reviewed an internal legislative draft of such a proposal, however the drafters intended to create a new “Historic Vehicle” category. This would put a new the special HMV category under the current WI Antique plate rules, rather than Collector Car rules, this would replace the current Antique plate. Antique category was suggested since it already has a mileage and usage limitation. It is easier to modify existing laws that it is to create new ones.



We don’t think this is a workable solution under antique plate rules. And we are currently working on a revised draft of a legislative rule change that would create a special HMV category (for post 1968 HMV’s) under the collector rules with limitations on road use.



We are making progress, the issue is active. There is much more detail, but this should give everyone a sense of what we are working toward.



Please share this information with the members of each of your respective collector clubs.