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Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

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Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby ODUSAOK » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:36 pm

Greetings Folks,
I've been reading ,digging,talking,scatching my head,and finding some answers along the way.First of all,Dodge Corp.Dodge factory manuals provide conversion info with respect to their Industrial six cylinder engines.Procedures are given to convert FROM FULL FLOW filtration TO BYPASS filtration.Apparently there was a need (and given method) to convert a newer full flow filter equipped replacement motor into a system that had used the older bypass equipped motor.The newer blocks had the necessary passages cast or drilled in production to accomodate either type system with fairly simple changes.This is helpful in ONE respect:it tends to reinforce my guess that proper flow volume willnot be accomplished by trying to convert a "bypass" block to a full flow system.The "full flow" block,as scaled,has passages that are 2x the diameter of the bypass system lines.By area of a circle,the bypass will flow 1/4 of the amount of the full flow.This would translate into bearing failure rather fast.The solution,theoretically,would be to drill and tap openings at the hose bosses in the block to accomodate 1/4" I.D. lines. It appears that in reality you would run the real risk of weakening the block to the point of fracturing it by doing so.
The oil filter company info was a bit more encouraging.My auto parts store friend is pretty technical minded.He built,and drove,sucessful race cars as a younger fellow.He did some digging and came up with suprising info on filter capture rates.The shorter story: 1) Baldwin brand filters are the best of the few we looked into. 2)The drop-in vs. spin-on filter ratings are about the same.
The longer story:My other consideration was to convert to a spin on filter for the sake of speed and less mess,but only if it could get equal filtration.It can and then some.Baldwin conversion to spin-on filter base is part #OB1305.Wix brand makes an equal component part #24755.The Wix is easier and less expensive for my friend to get.Baldwin provides the better filter however.That is part#B-164.Now the suprising part.The Baldwin drop-in filter has a nominal micron rating of 5 and an absolute micron rating of 25.The spin-on flter has a rating of 15 micron absolute.So what, right,more numbers.I don't like not knowing what I'm reading,particularly if it can cause me trouble.I did some digging (alot of digging) and finally found out what those terms really mean.5 microns nominal sounds the best.It's not.The engineers tell you nominal values are arbitrary and have no real analysis behind them.Basically they're salesmen's jargon to sound good.The best value system is the BETA system but you'll be hard pressed to see that data.It utilizes the most precise eqipment to determine flow rates and particulate/contaminant passing through filtration media as actually measured.The one you will find,and that actually gives some real world info,is the absolute value.It is defined by an industry standard (ISO 4572) and "starts at a seperation degree of 98.7% or higher" This is directly RATABLE to a BETA value of 75 or larger. "Nominal filtration is not defined.Absolute filtration guarantees a defined retention rate."In short,the absolute rating is the size of the largest particle that will pass through the filter.Look at the numbers again.The drop-in (canister) filter has an absolute rating of 25 microns.The spin-on absolute rating is 15 microns.The spin-on captures particles almost twice as small!
Bottom line,I'll let my spin-on filter (that I'm going to convert to) take 10 minutes of run time to clean all my oil down to 15 microns,knowing that even the "dirty oil" is pretty clean as it's been filtered that well.I willnot go for a full flow conversion that will restrict my oil flow to the point of motor destuction,even if that's an outside chance.I don't gamble,I know my luck.
Hope this helps somebody.Chris.
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby 808morgan » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:09 pm

I was curious about this, I am also looking into this subject. Thanks
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby Marmalute » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:01 am

Sounds like Chris was in the planning stage with this 5 1/2 years ago, it would be interesting to know if he went ahead with the spin on conversion and what his experiences were. Also, I know that this has been discussed before and a number of other guys have done this. It would be interesting to hear their feedback as well as what has worked and what they might do differently if they were to do it again.
Does anyone who has done this care to share pros and cons of this upgrade conversion?
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby NAM VET » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:34 am

I have always been interested in engine lubrication, and as the years went by, read what I could. On my Cobra's engine, I first used a Canton Mecca filter with a replaceable element, wanting high flow and good filtration. Then I made up a larger AN 12 line external cooling and filtration system, using a huge Wix no-bypass filter. The military of course wanted the "combat readiness" of an engine that would not quickly destruct from lack of oil, even it was dirty, hence the system we have on our trucks. The oil strainer keeps out the big metal or other debris; long years ago I converted my VW Type III's flat four to a full filtration system, drilled and tapped the block and used a Gene Berg oil pmp cover with an external AN outlet and a spin on oil filter. But millions of those motors went billions of miles with just the sump metal strainer and no real filter for the oil.

Not long ago, someone posted an old Chrysler video of the oiling of our motor types, and as I recall, it did not filter until the engine had some heat in it, perhaps depending on the viscosity of cold oil, or something like that. When I rebuilt my motor over the past year, I bought new replacement oil pressure bypass springs and "plugs", but the several I got from on of the vendors had the relief grooves in a different position than the one that came out of my motor. Not being sure what the new ones were designed to do, I re-used the one that my motor had already.

Oil filter filtration is a compromise between cold/hot flow and filtration, especially with modern filters with a bypass system. On my truck, being a big believer of knowing what an engine's oil temp and pressure is, I added an Autometer oil pressure gage right on my steering column, so my engine's pressure is always right in front of my eyes. I think it is important to remember that tiny particles do no harm to engine bearings, I think I read that around 40 micron or so there is beginning to be the possibility of bearing damage; of course, this would depend greatly on the specific engine. The colder and more viscous the oil is the greater resistance there is to filter flow. Perhaps in addition to getting the oil up to temp as soon as possible, using a good filter, it would be also important to use a magnetic oil plug and do frequent hot oil changes.

My motto has always been, "oil is cheap, engines are expensive."

All the best... NAM VET
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby rickf » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:29 am

Well, the last tie Chris was on here was 4 1/2 years ago so it is unlikely we will find out anything from him. Chances are that his spin on idea worked just fine and he just forgot all about it. That tends to happen when things work well.
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby milstencil » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:09 am

Here's mine Image
Done about 4 years ago and works great.
I opted for the larger Baldwin filter as it adds 1/2 quart more oil to the mix.
Rick
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby Marmalute » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:27 am

Hi Rick! How’s your winter been?
I’m curious about your set up. Is it basically plumbed as the original filter was?
What do you learn from your (oil pressure?) gage you have attached to it?
The voltage regulator bracket looks kinda empty, does that mean you are running an alternator?
Cheers! Doug
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby Elwood » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:06 am

NAM VET wrote:Not long ago, someone posted an old Chrysler video of the oiling of our motor types, and as I recall, it did not filter until the engine had some heat in it, perhaps depending on the viscosity of cold oil, or something like that. When I rebuilt my motor over the past year, I bought new replacement oil pressure bypass springs and "plugs", but the several I got from on of the vendors had the relief grooves in a different position than the one that came out of my motor. Not being sure what the new ones were designed to do, I re-used the one that my motor had already.

Perhaps you're thinking of this old Chrysler Master Tech series filmstrip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRGLYUyEdCU

The spool valve movement, which controls the return flow from the by-pass oil filter, is activated by oil pressure. Chrysler engineering apparently spec'd a number of different springs and valve designs over the years for these small flathead sixes, and I'm not sure what the correct spring rate is for the T-245 engine, but the booklet that goes with that filmstrip states that oil will start flowing through the by-pass filter once pressure gets to about 40 to 45 psi. Which means that an engine with worn bearings, a worn oil pump, a worn spool valve or incorrect spring, or some other cause for low oil pressure may never actually push oil through the by-pass filter, thus accelerating the cycle of engine wear.

NAM VET wrote:The military of course wanted the "combat readiness" of an engine that would not quickly destruct from lack of oil, even it was dirty, hence the system we have on our trucks.

I'm not sure how much "combat readiness" had to do with the by-pass system on our M37 engines, since the civilian Plymouth/Dodge flathead six engine first appeared in 1933, long before their use in the WWII era WC series and the 1950s era M37 series.

NAM VET wrote:Perhaps in addition to getting the oil up to temp as soon as possible, using a good filter, it would be also important to use a magnetic oil plug and do frequent hot oil changes.

Definitely. Magnetic drain plugs can be had from suppliers such as McMaster-Carr. And for engines still equipped with the military jr. filter canister, draining the sludge port on the bottom of the housing and cleaning the inside of the housing at every filter change is a good idea.
Last edited by Elwood on Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby milstencil » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:58 am

Hi Doug!
Winter sucks :!: Snow, then rain and nothing but ICE :!: :!:
I used the same plumbing as the old filter, except for longer hoses.
Mounted to the regulator base as when mounted to the old oil filter
bracket it was too close to the starter and made it difficult to change the filter.
The gauge gives me an accurate reading, about 40 lbs. The dash gauge is off.
Running a 60 amp alternator for the last 25 years with no trouble and the
batteries are always getting charged.
Image
Also have a 12 volt high output low RPM alternator that runs my snow plow
system.
Kind of crowded under the hood on the drivers side:!:
Regards,
Rick
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby Marmalute » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:35 am

I like it!!
And just think, another month or so and winter will be over! Right?
And after that, Mud Season! Ya gotta love that!
I can hardly wait!
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby rickf » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:51 pm

We had close to 3 inches of rain last night and today! The ground was frozen before that, Mud season HAS arrived here!
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby UZIS9MM » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:19 am

Elwood,

Where is the Spool Valve located and how is it checked?

I've been all through my engine (short of a rebuild) and I don't remember seeing any valves in or around the oil filter??

Kevin
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby Elwood » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:14 pm

Kevin, the "spool valve" is the oil pressure relief valve. It's behind a square head plug, which is located along the bottom edge of the engine block on the left side, below and little behind (I think, I'm doing this from memory) the ignitor (aka distributor). The valve is in the engine block, not part of the filter assembly - sorry if I gave you that impression.

Remove the square head plug, but be careful that the spring doesn't pop out and disappear on the floor. Then you can extract the spool valve, and inspect the valve and the bore for wear, dirt, corrosion, etc.

I'm away from my office at the moment, and don't have the password to access my photos on this site, so can't post an image of the valve, but it's in the TM9-1840 engine manual. It's probably also in the TM9-8040 maintenance manual, too.
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby NAM VET » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:19 am

Here is a pic of the "spool" fitting. It is installed behind the large square headed bolt. Be absolutely sure when you take it out that you reinsert it per the TM's. A forum member here not long ago had a rebuilder put the "spool", it is a small machined brass plug, about the size of your little finger and an inch and a half long, in incorrectly, and ruined his engine.

By the way, I had an oil leak from the right angle fitting just above, the one with the oil line coming out. It was difficult to tighten into the block when installed, since it is extremely close to the back of the starter. I thought I was going to have to pull the starter to get to it. I suggest you clean the threads well, and use the appropriate sealant carefully applied and snug it down well and be sure it is then at the correct position for the oil line to thread into it.

NV

[url][url=https://postimg.org/image/3lcckkqgl/]Image[/url][/url]
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Re: Oil Filtration:Chaos and Answers

Postby Elwood » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:41 am

Thanks for posting that photo, NV.
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